How Threat Capped are We?
saedo — Thu, 04/24/2008 - 16:35
So I was wondering, besides the obvious threat capping fights in Gurtogg and RoS, are we threat capped?
Been doing some research on Imp Expose Armor (3050 armor reduction) vs Sunder Armor (2600 armor reduction). Apparently a warrior can still Devastate under Expose Armor for threat, it just doesn't apply the Sunder Debuff for more threat. This is about a 100 TPS loss from what I heard. The 450 extra armor reduction is about a 3-5% physical dps boost.
So I was wondering for a typical fight, do we have the room for this? Are ppl just riding the cap that we can't afford it? It might mean popping the vanish/invis sooner, or waiting just a bit more before opening up.
Well a bit more from EJ to
saedo — Sat, 04/26/2008 - 10:51Well a bit more from EJ to when to do this.
1) You have specced for 2/2 in Improved Expose Armor.
2) Your personal Rupture does less dps than the raid would gain through total sources of physical dps (which is virtually guaranteed to be the case in a 25-person raid).
3) Either a) you don't use warrior tanks, or b) your warrior tanks are generating enough surplus threat that they would still be able to hold aggro if the raid did more dps while they generated less threat
Condition 1 and 2 are met. Condition 3a happens rarely I guess but like last night's Hyjal, sometimes occurs. Condition 3b is what I'd like to find out.
Too add on, I'm not sure
Ewiges — Fri, 04/25/2008 - 11:48Too add on, I'm not sure if this is due to people finally using their agro drop, vanishes and such.
Ewiges - Absorbing the stupidity of the world for over 20 years.
What I notice as far as
Ewiges — Fri, 04/25/2008 - 11:47What I notice as far as Omen is that a lot of people ride threat for the first 1/3 -1/2 of that fight. After that PK tends to pull away. Maybe we should think about switching sunders for expose at a 1/3 - 1/2 into the fight.
Ewiges - Absorbing the stupidity of the world for over 20 years.
Taken from EJ: Modifiers are
Desteran — Fri, 04/25/2008 - 11:07Taken from EJ:
Modifiers are 30% for Def stance and 15% for Defiance
The following are the raw values of threat before modifiers such as defiance or defensive stance (originally from WoWWiki):
Devastate +106 + [14 * Sunder Count]
Also applies Sunder Armor threat when increasing the
Sunder Armor +301 (rank 6)
He'll be missing 14*5* 149.5% (taken from wow wiki) = 104.65
threat from every devistate (after the first five would have originally
been applied). I am assuming that Expose armor would be used to override the first 5 sunders so I dont think that would be an issue.
And if he's using a 4 abiltiy roatation
Shield slam -> Revenge -> Devastate -> Devastate -> repeat
(According to EJ, rotation should last 6.4 seconds)
Thats (104.65*2) /6.4 = 32.70 TPS lost. Not too significant if it isn't a threat sensitive fight...
So glad its Friday...
It might be worth it to
starstalker — Fri, 04/25/2008 - 10:43It might be worth it to try it, just to see how much threat he loses. If we wipe once because of it, we can always revert back to our original plans.
I don't really know if an
Shihli — Fri, 04/25/2008 - 10:37I don't really know if an extra 400 armor penetration is worth the trade-off of reduced threat cap for *everyone*, along with forcing Pk to adjust his gear on the fly.
That's basically why I have
saedo — Fri, 04/25/2008 - 10:43That's basically why I have the opening question in this thread.
Are there a lot of people just riding the threat cap on every single boss fight? Some fights on Omen I see Pk well ahead of everyone. I think fights like that can afford threat cap drop.
Maybe I'm thinking too far ahead, but this is just exploring a possibility to push raid dps even higher.
Doesn't Devastate generate
Shihli — Fri, 04/25/2008 - 10:30Doesn't Devastate generate more threat if the target has Sunder on it?
Yes, exactly. Also
saedo — Fri, 04/25/2008 - 10:36Yes, exactly. Also Devastate puts up Sunders, essentially replacing it as the new and improved version.
This has been the whole point. lol Reduced threat from Devastate due to lack of Sunder debuffs. Reduced threat cap.
In exchange, possible higher raid dps. If we can manage it under the reduced threat cap.
All bosses are immune to
Atar — Fri, 04/25/2008 - 10:24All bosses are immune to taunt in Hyjal.
Well since this post is
saedo — Fri, 04/25/2008 - 09:58Well since this post is getting buried. I'd like to experiement with using Imp Expose Armor while Pk is tanking. But I'd probably need the green light on this. Else things could get messy. lol
There's been some theories that with the tauntable nature of Brutallus, this might work out there at least. The feral tank generates more threat from the extra armor reduction while the prot warrior piggy backs that threat with taunts.
Let's try this in Hyjal
garreth — Fri, 04/25/2008 - 10:18Let's try this in Hyjal tonight on Rage/Anetheron. Both melee dps friendly. So, basically, Pk no longer uses Sunder, but rather devestates and chain taunts?
Well I assume he doesn't
saedo — Fri, 04/25/2008 - 10:27Well I assume he doesn't Sunder anyways cause Devastate does everything Sunder does and more. And I don't think he can taunt those bosses.
For those bosses, Pk does everything the same basically. But, he'll have lower threat generation, and will have to ignore the "more power spell is active" error messages.
So basically threat cap is lowered. Everyone would have to adjust to it. But physical dps increases.
Whether it's better on not for those particular bosses is the experiment.
It prob means Pk should be in TPS gear if he normally doesn't for those bosses.
The rogue dps spread sheet
Roguered — Thu, 04/24/2008 - 20:12The rogue dps spread sheet has all their armor ranges listed
How many of the bosses
Ewiges — Thu, 04/24/2008 - 16:39How many of the bosses will the armor hit cap on? I know bosses are between 2-4k armor.
Ewiges - Absorbing the stupidity of the world for over 20 years.
Most bosses are either 6200
saedo — Thu, 04/24/2008 - 16:45Most bosses are either 6200 armor or 7685 armor. Realistically only people with Executioner and about 1500+ armor pen (or a Warp Spring) are going have a chance of armor capping.
Only bosses to fall outside that range is Aran (2400), Void Reaver (8800), and Essence of Suffering (Phase 1 RoS, zero armor).
Where you getting these
Ewiges — Thu, 04/24/2008 - 20:08Where you getting these numbers from? I thought it was impossible to tell how much armor a boss has. From I heard awhile ago were the numbers I mentioned earlier.
Ewiges - Absorbing the stupidity of the world for over 20 years.
The rogue dps spreadsheet
saedo — Thu, 04/24/2008 - 21:06The rogue dps spreadsheet does have them, but the numbers are originally from this EJ thread.
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t16629-raid_boss_armor_values/
Um, but not the first post, they've since corrected the values with a lot of testing further in the thread. They used low damage range attacks which are mitigated by armor such as Thunderclap and kicks and used the % mitigation formulas to determine armor value.
Your numbers might just be numbers after Sunders and Recklessness has been applied.