Project: Rogue Tank
saedo — Wed, 05/07/2008 - 15:07
So, just for fun, I'm gonna start working on an avoidance set. It'll be done on my own time, using heroic badges and whatnot, nothing else to spend on now anyways. Maybe pick some stuff off NRP if the opportunity arises. This blog will be my checklist of sorts and calculations thrown in.
The Goal: 101.8% avoidance. Which for a rogue means, Dodge, Parry, and Miss Rate only. Defense is only about 75% as effective due to no ability to block. With avoidance, it'd make 1% Dodge = 1% Parry = 1% Miss Rate = 1% Avoidance.
The Macro:: This would be the in game macro that will help you monitor your avoidance. Doesn't count for Scorpid Sting or Insect Swarm, but you can manually add that in with a +5 +2 in there if you wish.
/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Need 101.8 combined avoidance. Currently at:",0.8,0.8,1)
/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(GetDodgeChance() + GetBlockChance() + GetParryChance() + 5 + floor(GetCombatRatingBonus(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL)) * 0.04,1,0.5,0)
My Spec: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0eboZ0xxZxrxohuRoxsx
Agility: 20 agi = 1% dodge. Assuming Sinister Calling (15% more agi) and Kings (10% more), we essentially get that 1 agi on gear = 1x0.1x0.15) = 1.265 agi on paper. So, 1 agi = 1.265 * (1% / 20) Dodge = 0.06325% Avoidance.
Dodge Rating: 18.92307854 = 1% dodge. So, 1 dodge rating = 1% / 18.92307854 = 0.052845523% Avoidance
Defense Rating: 2.365385056 = 1 Defense = 0.04% Dodge + 0.04% Parry + 0.04% Miss Rate = 0.12% Avoidance. So 1 defense rating = 0.12% / 2.365385056 = 0.050731697% Avoidance
Parry Rating: 23.65384674 = 1% parry. So, 1 parry rating = 1% / 23.65384674 = 0.042276421% Avoidance.
With these numbers, we essentially get a stat weight for each of these values.
Gems:
- Epic - [Delicate Crimson Spinel] is also the only choice, since equivalent gems give the exact same number of stats (10 def, 10 parry, 10 dodge, etc), agility wins out point for point. So, the stat weight for this is automatically: 10 * 0.06325 = 0.6325% Avoidance
- Rare - [Delicate Living Ruby] = Just for reference if using "cheaper" gems: 8 * 0.0625 = 0.506 % Avoidance
- [Glistening Fire Opal] would be useful to fill in some meta gem requirements for yellows = 0.506658489% Avoidance
- [Shadowsong Amethyst] = Only blue color gem to fill in meta gem = 0.31625% Avoidance
Enchants:
- Helm - [Glyph of the Defender] = 16 * 0.050632911 + 17 * 0.052854122 = 1.710081073% Avoidance
- Cloak - 12 agility = 0.759% Avoidance
- Shoulders - [Greater Inscription of Warding] = 1.299999838% Avoidance
- Chest - 15 defense = 0.760975468% Avoidance
- Bracers - 12 defense = 0.608780374% Avoidance
- Gloves - 15 agility = 0.94875% Avoidance
- Legs - 12 agility = 0.759% Avoidance
- Boots - 12 agility = 0.759% Avoidance
- Weapons - 20 agility = 1.265% Avoidance
Buffs: Well might not get all these, but just considering the numbers
- [Elixir of Major Agility] - 2.21375% Avoidance
- [Warp Burger] - 1.265% Avoidance
- [Scroll of Agility V] - 1.265% Avoidance
- Mark of the Wild - 14 Agility (18 Improved) = 0.8855% Avoidance (1.1385% Improved)
- Grace of Air = 77 agility (88 Improved) = 4.87025% Avoidance (5.566% Improved)
- Scorpid Sting - 5% Avoidance
- Insect Swarm - 2% Avoidance
Spec:
- Lightning Reflexes = 5% Avoidance
- Deflection = 5% Avoidance
Gear Listing: These will use the above stat weights to rank the gear as part of my goals to get list
Helms: [Grimgrin Faceguard] = 4.4275% Avoidance
- [Mask of the Furry Hunter] = 4.554%
Necks: [Necklace of the Deep] = 2.59325% Avoidance
Shoulders: [Slayer's Shoulderpads] = 3.4155% Avoidance
- [Brutal Gladiator's Leather Spaulders] = 3.73175%
- [Demontooth Shoulderpads] = 3.6685%
Back: [Slikk's Cloak of Placation] = 2.132845264% Avoidance
- [Phoenix-Wing Cloak] = 2.542926499%
- [Cloak of Unforgivable Sin] = 2.277%
Chest: [Slayer's Chestguard] = 4.74375% Avoidance
Bracers: [Insidious Bands] = 2.4035% Avoidance
- [Insidious Bands] = 2.404158489% - If gemmed with [Glistening Fire Opal]
Gloves: [Wastewalker Gloves] = 3.289% Avoidance
- [Shadowed Gauntlets of Paroxysm] = 3.85825%
- [Gloves of Dexterous Manipulation] = 3.47875%
- [Wastewalker Gloves] = 3.321695061% - If gemmed with [Glistening Fire Opal]
Waist: [Belt of Deep Shadow] = 3.289% Avoidance
Legs: [Deathmantle Legguards] = 3.47875% Avoidance
- [Leggings of the Immortal Beast] = 4.807%
- [Leggings of the Immortal Night] = 4.74375%
- [Tameless Breeches] = 4.11125%
- [Trousers of the Scryers' Retainer] = 3.998475% - If gemmed with Crimsons
- [Skulker's Greaves] = 3.9215%
- [Wastewalker Leggings] = 3.9215%
- [Deathmantle Legguards] = 3.60525% - If gemmed with Crimsons
Boots: [Nimble-foot Treads] = 3.345138098% Avoidance
Rings: [Amber Band] of Eluding (21 agi / 21 dodge) x 2 = 2.438006003% Avoidance
Trinkets: [Scarab of Displacement] = 2.13073131% Avoidance, [Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch] = 2.00812991% Avoidance
- [Shadowmoon Insignia] = 3.517397889% - Gurtogg
Ranged: [Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix] = 1.20175% Avoidance
- [Barrel-Blade Longrifle] = 2.277% - Doomwalker
- [Twisted Blades of Zarak] = 1.45475% - Teron
- [Legionkiller] = 1.32825% - Supremus
- [Arcanite Steam-Pistol] = 1.265% - Al'ar
Weapons: [Rage] = 1.8975% Avoidance, [Umbral Shiv] = 2.024% Avoidance +
Stats:
Base Agility = 163
Base Dodge = 1% + 5% - 0.59% = 5.41%
Base Parry = 5% + 5% = 10%
Boss Miss Rate = 5%
Scorpid = 5%
Insect = 2%
Dodge Rating = 162 = 8.560974878%
Defense Rating = 111 = 46 defense = 1.84% dodge, 1.84% parry, 1.84% miss
Gear + Buff Agility = 628 + 181 = 809 + 163 = 972
Sinister Calling + Kings = (163*1.15 + round(809*1.15) ) * 1.1 = 1229 agi
Agility Dodge = 1229 / 20 = 61.45%
Total Avoidance = 5.41 + 10 + 5 + 5 + 2 + 8.560974878 + 3x1.84 + 61.45 = 102.9409749% / 101.8%
Vids: http://www.downfallguild.org/node/2381#comment-21409
Just some vids at attempts at tanking, didn't quite make the kill in any of them. Need more avoidance!
- saedo's blog
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Ahh, but Garreth ...
Shihli — Sat, 09/27/2008 - 13:22Ahh, but Garreth ...
Wow, didn't read my last
saedo — Sat, 09/27/2008 - 06:14Wow, didn't read my last comment in here? lol
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True story, I only read the
garreth — Sat, 09/27/2008 - 12:51True story, I only read the first paragraph of all your long posts :P
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"Yes; analogies, it turns out, can sometimes be used to draw parallels between things that are not exactly the same." - Ratgirl
Ah ok, 1 paragraph posts it
saedo — Sat, 09/27/2008 - 13:25Ah ok, 1 paragraph posts it is! (no matter how long it is)
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large blocks of text
Adwarflol — Sun, 09/28/2008 - 11:16large blocks of text frighten me <__<
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Special with a CoH
living with you is like living in a living nightmare!
Just found a link to this
garreth — Sat, 09/27/2008 - 00:06Just found a link to this post from a pretty popular wow blog: http://rrvs.blogspot.com/2008/09/rogue-tanking-1018.html
Cool site, check it out!
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"Yes; analogies, it turns out, can sometimes be used to draw parallels between things that are not exactly the same." - Ratgirl
I'm sure talking a lot in
saedo — Mon, 09/08/2008 - 17:18I'm sure talking a lot in here these couple of days aren't I? lol
Well I doubt many of you have permissions to see this but I took a look at: http://www.downfallguild.org/node/2381/track just to see who else besides me is reading this.
You know what I found, I've have people referred here from Google ("Rogue Tank" searches), EJ Forums, some Horde Oblivion guild, and even another blog that's actually trying to teach people to Rogue Tank. And this is just on the first page.
HI PEOPLE!
I did not realize this page has become that public. lol This blog's intention was never really to teach anyone rogue tanking. Just a checklist of what I wanted to do. Though all the mathy stuff at the beginning could help anyone conduct a more thorough research for themselves.
Anyways, for those people looking for a more step by step guide, this was one the pages that referred me: http://rrvs.blogspot.com/2008/09/rogue-tanking-1018.html
They seem to have stuff listed to teach. I even just learned the existence of the [Glistening Fire Opal] from there which probably does change my stance on Meta Gems and its activation requirements. But, looks like I need to do Mana Tombs for em.
Also though, from the looks of things, he might have copied my Agility + Kings + Sinister Calling formula, or just arrived at that conclusion too. Which I recently found out is wrong through some in game testing. Not way off, but does reduce the value of Agility a bit.
Well I'm finished with my little address to the nation. Carry on.
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Well after fiddling around I
saedo — Mon, 09/08/2008 - 14:30Well after fiddling around I do notice one slight error with the macro.
For the "boss miss" part of the calculations. This part:
(GetCombatRating(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL)*150/355 + 20)*0.04
it converts the defense rating into defense, then does the times 0.04 to get your additional miss value.
What's wrong with that is that it gets it all as an unrounded decimal. But in game, it gets floored to the closest integer value for its magic. So it is a slight overestimate. In my case, it's an overestimate of 0.037072753%. Small one, doesn't cover the whole 0.647589993% part which about a 13 agi diff so it's more significant.
And at most this overestimate would only be at 0.04%, well technically 0.039999%. Depending on how close you are to the next Defense value.
Anyways, a fix to the macro would be to just do this: floor(GetCombatRatingBonus(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL))*0.04
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So I added another section
saedo — Mon, 09/08/2008 - 11:19So I added another section above to recalc my stats, this time, separating agi/dodge/parry/defense and adding up from there.
Unbuffed, calcs are fine, they actually match up what I'd get on my armory/char screen.
Buffed wise, well numbers got a bit different again.
So the number is now 98.59236786% without Scorpid and Insect Swarm. To match what I did on VR, the macro should read 97.34236786% vs the 98.02703061771% it gave. A difference of 0.684662746%
So I closed the error gap by a bit now (1.36% before). But still a bit off. Either the macro is overestimating my avoidance by almost 0.7%, or I'm getting something wrong in my calcs to underestimate myself by that 0.7%. Or maybe the game starts rounding off at lower decimal places somewhere, but yet gives more values again somewhere else?
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Yea I do. It should be
saedo — Mon, 09/08/2008 - 09:06Yea I do. It should be added, I have 0.04% Dodge + 0.04% Parry + 0.04% Miss Rate = 0.12% avoidance per Defense point for me. Removed the block I'd get from it. Maybe the macro thinks I get block from defense?
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did u include the bonus
Sorreah — Mon, 09/08/2008 - 07:53did u include the bonus chance to be missed given by defence ?
anything over 350 adds to be missed
Ok so numbers are fixed.
saedo — Sun, 09/07/2008 - 23:50Ok so numbers are fixed. Now at 104.708246% / 101.8% Avoidance, so still untouchable provided I get all the buffs/debuffs going.
Though, according to the screenshot, 98.02703061771 Avoidance, which doesn't include Scorpid and Insect Swarm. So if my calculated numbers are accurate, and since I forgot Warp Burgers that night, then it should read 96.658246% on the screen, diff of 1.36878461%.
Hmm wonder if i'm forgetting anything, or if the macro is incorrect for rogues.
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Well this weekend of tanking
saedo — Sun, 09/07/2008 - 22:42Well this weekend of tanking allowed me to see a few things. I fiddled around with gears and numbers and checked stuff out.
Well I found out that there's a pretty significant error in my calculations. It turns out that Blessing of Kings and Sinister calling stacks additively. Not multiplicatively like I believed.
So the real value for my agi weight shouldn't be 0.06325, but instead, 1 x (1 + 0.15 + 0.1) / 20 = 0.0625.
I found it cause I saw that 20 agi w/ kings increased me exactly 1.25% dodge. This can only mean that 1.25/20 = 0.0625 is what I should be using
What's this mean? I did overvalue agi a bit. About 1.2% overvalued, but still a bit. This probably explains why my in game values were different than my calculated values.
Anyways, well have to readjust my above stuff in a bit.
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Get these vids up in the OP
garreth — Sun, 09/07/2008 - 22:35Get these vids up in the OP so they don't get lost in the comments :)
GJ saedo!
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"Yes; analogies, it turns out, can sometimes be used to draw parallels between things that are not exactly the same." - Ratgirl
But these aren't exactly
saedo — Sun, 09/07/2008 - 22:45But these aren't exactly "successfully" tanked ones. Got real close again tonight, but just missing that final stretch. lol
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I don't have Fraps but I
saedo — Sun, 09/07/2008 - 20:53I don't have Fraps but I tried that Wegame thing. So here's 3 vids where I tried to tank. No music or anything, don't have any video editors myself. And I guess I should stop recording sound next time. lol
Maulgar: Died at about 2:40 in, a fear then death.
http://wowwebstats.com/bpbs5mc3zv1y5?s=10107-17779&a=x6e7cbd&dth=15413
Gruul: Died at about 6:40, don't think I see a Scorpid Sting at that time. Last time I can see that debuff appears to be at 5:34. So lasted a whole min without it. lol Looks like it went right back up though after my death.
http://wowwebstats.com/bpbs5mc3zv1y5?s=29311-42508&a=x6e7cbd&dth=41878
Magtheridon: Died a lot sooner this time at about 5:12. Um, looks like I didn't notice the totems going away at 3:28. So I lasted 1:44 without em. Looks like Scorpid Sting went off at about 3:59. So guess that's almost 10% avoidance down. And dang, you really can't see anything while tanking here. lol
http://wowwebstats.com/bpbs5mc3zv1y5?s=54191-76558&a=x6e7cbd&dth=65198
Hehe so maybe I should just get more gear next time to not rely on buffs. Another 0.52% needed to remove Scorpid Sting only.
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Well here's a record for me
saedo — Sat, 09/06/2008 - 21:52Well here's a record for me to keep, tanking Void Reaver. Well most of it, lasted til like 2%.
The parses for it: http://wowwebstats.com/uf651n2bj4loi?s=167048-187827&m
And here's screenshot I took for my avoidance and such.
Rogue Tank VR
So 98.02703061171% avoidance. 2% Insect Swarm and 5% Scorpid Sting, that'd put me at 105.027%. That's about 3.227% over my avoidance cap.
So I guess I can pull back on a few of my gear for other stuff! Too bad weapons take about 4.7% of my avoidance if I switch to the pretty ones. Need more avoidance elsewhere before I can do that! Or maybe second pair with new enchants. ;p
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Don't forget imp FF <_< =_
Adwarflol — Sat, 09/06/2008 - 22:42Don't forget imp FF <_<
=_
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Special with a CoH
living with you is like living in a living nightmare!
It gives 3% hit and -armor.
saedo — Sat, 09/06/2008 - 22:45It gives 3% hit and -armor. Does nothing for Avoidance really. More dps/threat though!
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it is 5% for an *equal
peeka (not verified) — Sun, 07/20/2008 - 21:50it is 5% for an *equal level* mob
Yea that's what I thought
saedo — Mon, 07/07/2008 - 13:18Yea that's what I thought too. Guess I'll continue to assume it unless I find some new player experiments that prove otherwise.
5% is what everything i have
Sorreah — Mon, 07/07/2008 - 13:145% is what everything i have read says so i go with that
I have that macro It
saedo — Mon, 07/07/2008 - 12:44I have that macro
It assumes a Boss Miss Rate of 5% already. It's the part where it goes GetParryChance()+5+etc. So it's a flat out number being plugged in rather than some calcuation for Boss Miss Rate. Widely believed and assumed to be 5% by everyone I guess.
/script
Sorreah — Mon, 07/07/2008 - 12:21/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Need 102.4 combined avoidance. Currently at:",0.8,0.8,1)
/script
DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(GetDodgeChance()+GetBlockChance()+GetParryChance()+5+(GetCombatRating(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL)*150/355
+ 20)*0.04,1,0.5,0)
make that macro and just press it in your tanking gear it will display your avoidance total
this is what i use to check crushability and gear upgrade options for my tanking
it does include boss miss
Cool thanks. Certainly
saedo — Sun, 07/06/2008 - 12:23Cool thanks. Certainly some stuff to think about. Couldn't find the Eluding ring for level 70s, got the one for 68s which is already better. I'll keep an eye out for a better version now.
Ok, since I was respec'ing for some pvp anyways, here's an opportunity to give some hard numbers rather than number scratching.
Untalented, and naked agility = 163. I guess I got a bit more due to being a NE.
Untalented and naked dodge = 8.56%. I do get 1% more just for being NE.
Now spec'ing down into Sinister Calling and with Avoidance gear, Unbuffed:
Agility = 943
Dodge = 58.13% (+ 5% Lightning Reflexes)
Parry = 6.16% (+ 5% Deflection)
Defense = 1.16% chance to miss
Total Unbuffed Avoidance = 75.45%
Assuming my buff calcuations are still correct...
Kings = 94.3 agil = 4.715% Dodge
Other Buffs = 18.5399625%
Total Buffed Avoidance = 98.7049625%
All that's missing is the Boss Base Miss Rate. I thought it was believed to be 5%. With boss level mobs (skulls) always being considered +3 levels above you and assuming normal weapon skills and defenses.
But anyways, that does leave a 3.0950375% leeway to work with for boss miss rates.
I plan on still casually collecting tanking gear for fun. Can easily go over any caps when I get more pieces so I can still do it with less buffs in case I can't get em. I'll just switch pieces out when I need to.
I think there's a problem
peeka (not verified) — Sun, 07/06/2008 - 11:19I think there's a problem with your calculations.
Base 166 agility = 10.5% dodge.
My level 70 rogue, naked with no talents, is 161 agility. If you are applying the .06325 rule , then you cannot bump that 161 up to 166. That would be doing your calculations twice on the same number.
Second, 166 base agility does NOT equal 10.5% dodge. If you strip naked, I think you'll find your dodge% is closer to 7.5%. You are giving yourself 3% extra that does not exist. The .06325 rule does not apply to ones' base agility.
Furthermore, the base miss rate for bosses is not 5%. Its something like 4%. The boss gets anywhere from .8% to .02% Per Level to hit, depending on its level vs yours, its weapon skill vs your defense, and which forum you read.
Also your +32 agility ring is surpassed by the [Adamantite Ring of Eluding], easily bought on the Ah for a little gold.
i am sure we can arrange to
Sorreah — Mon, 06/30/2008 - 13:09i am sure we can arrange to get king killed and get a 5 man gruul on
i offer the services of any of my toons to you
i want to see this
u can doit Saedo!!!
Atakheal — Mon, 06/30/2008 - 09:29u can doit Saedo!!! =D
Chain Heal FTW
Still need a fairly specific
saedo — Mon, 06/30/2008 - 09:06Still need a fairly specific setup to make it work. Druid w/ Insect Swarm, Pally w/ Kings, a Hunter, and a Shaman (w/ Enh Totem preferred but seems I can get over cap w/o).
For Gruul, well unless we 5 man it or something. Or go with no other melee. Cause I highly doubt I can keep 2nd aggro if there's an OT there soaking the hateful strikes. Or maybe I can try soaking it if the other melee wanna try keeping below me.
Saedo, one of these nights
Shihli — Mon, 06/30/2008 - 08:55Saedo, one of these nights we should test this in a heroic somewhere.