Raid Stacking in WotLK
saedo — Sat, 08/23/2008 - 10:27
Ghostcrawler (a blue) answered a lot of questions, it's a good read to think about: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=9023610738&sid=2000
As we've suggested a few times, we are currently
taking a serious look at all of the various buffs and debuffs classes
can bring to parties and especially raids. A few of these changes have
shown up in the recent build, and more are on the way. I'll first
explain why we're doing this and then what generally we are doing.
Why we think this change is necessary:
1) We are adding a new class in Wrath of the Lich King as well as
improving some specs that were previously viewed as inferior for PvE.
Yet because the raid size is remaining at 25-players (and we expect
many people with raid with 10), it may be hard to fit more people into
your raid.
2) We are moving almost every buff to affect the entire raid.
There are only a few exceptions, and these tend to be short-term,
bursty abilities. Most buffs from Battle Shout to Leader of the Pack
will affect the raid.
3) While we are likely to increase the debuff limit on bosses,
this is a problem we keep running into. Furthermore, it asks a lot of
players to be able to parse bosses with 30, 50, 100 debuffs on them. At
some point, we need to stop the madness.
4) Stacking a raid in order to get the right buffs has started to
feel a little like a crutch, much like stacking consumables felt not so
long ago. Because some of the buffs scale so well and have so much
synergy with other classes, you may sometimes feel that you should pass
over a really skilled player in order to pick up a buff that will bring
more to you group. We'd rather get back to bringing good players or,
gasp, even your friends.
5) We want the challenge of the encounter to be the fight itself,
not collecting all of the buffs and debuffs you need to succeed. Buffs
are fun. We don't want to cut them or nerf them significantly. But we
do want to make benefiting from them less of a burden.
Some changes you're going to see:
1) Ease and flexibility in getting all of the major buffs in the
group, while still having a few spare slots to take the people you want
to take.
2) More parity in which classes can raid. While it's probably not
realistic to get 2.5 of every class in a 25-player raid, we can get a
lot closer than we are today.
3) More overlap in buffs and debuffs and very few unique buffs. If
you can't get player X to bring the melee haste buff, maybe you can get
player Y.
4) No two classes should have the same set of buffs. This is to
make sure that one class can't completely replace another. If you have
two players both bringing melee haste, there is a good chance one of
them also brings something else you need. Again, the goal is
flexibility.
A few examples:
1) To get a spell damage vulnerability debuff on a boss, you can
bring a a warlock for Curse of Elements or a death knight for Ebon
Plague. They don't stack, but both classes also bring additional
benefits in case you want to run with both. The lock brings Curse of
Recklesness, Demonic Pact, Curse of Weakness, Blood Pact and Fel
Intelligence (depending on spec). The death knight brings Abomination's
Might, Improved Icy Talons, various Auras, and a new Str + Agi buff you
haven't seen yet (again depending on spec).
2) To get a 5% melee crit bonus, you can bring a Feral druid for Leader of the Pack or a Fury warrior for Rampage.
3) While having a mana battery feels essential in many cases, you
can now bring a Shadow priest, Retribution paladin or Survival hunter
to fill the role.
4) You can improve health of the entire raid with Commanding Shout
or Blood Pact. You don't need both, so perhaps the warrior can Battle
Shout or the lock can bring out another pet instead.
I want to stress that none of this is set in stone. A change like
this is going to take some iteration until it feels right. While we are
pretty happy with the plan, it is certainly possible that some class or
spec is going to be hurt by a change more than we anticipated. We don't
want to hurt anyone's viability while soloing, in small groups, or in
PvP with this change. We aren't trying to slap anyone in the face --
we're trying to make the game more fun.
The goal is to get more people into raids and to let you bring the
people you want. Ultimately, that should benefit everyone. Please try
and keep that in mind as you start to see the changes.
And of course, please share your feedback on them with us. :)
If it comes down to
needing one of nearly everything... raiders would either have to be
happy with getting less playtime in raids or you would have to hope
your raiding members are skilled enough to repec to a missing spec...
and also geared enough... to fill that role.
This is actually what we are trying to avoid. Our feeling is raids work
too much like that now where you have to bring X class to have a
reasonable chance of success. There are some buffs that most players
would consider mandatory, or at least very powerful. You'll want to get
those. You'll want 2 or so tanks and 7 or however many healers works
for you. Then just take good people.
What if, for example, my
best buddy is a Feral Druid and I'm a Fury Warrior. Should one of us be
forced to respec to get raid spots together? Should we be encouraged
not to run 5-mans together because our buffs don't stack, etc?
No, that would be a fail in our minds. You have 23 (or 8) other slots
to get the buffs you need. And realize when I say need that everyone's
needs are different. Haste is pretty valuable, as is mana return. Is
Arcane Int? Is Imp Prayer of Spirit? Your guild will have to decide
that. In our design we made sure it was possible to get all the big
buffs with as few as 11-12 people. That gives you a lot of room to
bring your buddies even if they are the same role, class or spec.
here's an idea: lets just
keep that cruise control for "easy mode" on and just speed up a few
more years down the road...*all classes now have every possible buff in
the game as soon as they enter an instance - we want it to be fun and
easy for everyone to enjoy...screw brains and effort LETS ALL HAVE
CAKE!*
It isn't our intention to dumb down the game. In fact, we want the
challenge to be more about the encounter itself and not the buffs. When
you think about it, it's not a big mystery what buffs you need for a
good raid. The challenge is in finding good people who can fill those
roles while explaining to good players that you just can't use them
tonight. That's a logistical challenge I guess, but we are making the
assumption that most players would rather face strategic or tactical
challenges. In a game as large as WoW there will be exceptions of
course. We view this similarly to actions we took when raids ran around
getting the Zul'Gurub or Onyxia buffs before going on a raid. That
wasn't particularly fun, but people felt like they had to do it or
they'd be surrendering a big potential advantage. The flask stacking
and consumable stacking got to be a similar burden. I'm not sure a lot
of people wish for those days again, but no doubt some do.
Every non-stackable raid
buff needs to be the exact same for it to be that great. Like
Rampage/LotP. Rampage doesn't heal/give it to ranged. So if you already
have battle shout, druid trumps warriors. Etc etc. Its like my original
post where I was asking if some things were the same, but now I'm
looking at it, they are not.
I will admit that is a logical extension of our argument, but in
reality I don't think it will get to that point, at least for 99.9% of
us. If Ebon Plague was a 12% buff and Curse of Elements was a 10% buff
do you think that 2% means the difference between success and failure?
What if one buff has a longer duration or costs less mana? We think you
just hit a point of diminishing returns, where as long as you have the
big buffs you need, and maybe some of the minor ones, the rest is going
to be in the noise. One or two percent may seem a big deal for the
guilds going for world first on Kil'Jaeden, but that kind of player is
going to go to extremes almost no matter what we do. For most of us,
our players being focused and getting lucky with a string of crits
probably has a much bigger impact than a 2% difference. Or put another
way, a buff that increases your dps by 1300? Yes please. Would I boot
that player to get the buff that offers 1330? Probably not.
As the "only true hybrid"
class, what extra value are we bringing to a raid over, say, a Druid or
a Death Knight? More specifically, why would a raid leader consider an
Enhancement Shaman over a Feral Druid or Death Knight when both of
these classes can DPS, provide excellent bufs (LotP, icy talons, the
"str/agi" buff you mentioned earlier), provide utility (interrupts,
silence, battle rez), as well as fulfill a crucial tank role (and
possibly main tank role) in a pinch without respeccing?
Well for one thing, flexibility. If you end up just not being a stellar
healer or decide you hate healing, you can respec to two kinds of dps,
while the rogue who can't dps just has to go home. One of the strengths
of the shaman class is flexibility. While someone else might offer a
haste buff, you do have other totems you can drop. Even if there are
enough players to cover all of your best buffs, if you're a good
player, most guilds would take you anyway. They might have trouble
doing that today on live because bringing you might mean no armor
debuff or spellpower buff. It's easier to have coverage with the new
plan. If you're sad because you thought it was awesome that your group
got to bring 6 shamans, well then it might be harder for you now. But I
don't get the sense that is your concern.
The dungeon designers are number crunchers, and they often design bosses around the most optimum raid setups.
The dungeon designers are down the hall from me. They design the
encounters around the stats and abilities of the classes. If we tell
them what buffs they can expect, they can use that information to
balance fights and make them interesting. If we tell them they can’t
count on there being a MT who can Shield Block, then they won’t make an
attack like Shear.
Think about some of the later BC encounters – they were designed to
challenge the current status quo. Nobody runs out of mana? Okay, we’ll
hit the tank really hard. Paladins can heal the tank forever? Okay
let’s make them run around a little bit. The raid can achieve X dps
because Heroism / Bloodlust (and drums, and chain chugging pots) is up
a big chunk of the time? Cool, they know how much health the boss can
have. If we thought it worked out better for the game for the MT to
have 16K health, do you think Patchwerk would hit for 19K? While we
misjudge and make mistakes sometimes, the design of the encounters is
to challenge whatever players can currently offer. It’s a sliding
scale.
I might have been, yeah ...
Shihli — Tue, 09/02/2008 - 16:09I might have been, yeah ...
Saedo - Fort does have
Shihli — Tue, 09/02/2008 - 15:52Saedo -
Fort does have "competition" so to speak, warlock felhunter pets get Fel Fortitude (or something similar) that adds a percentage to your stamina and spirit. It's intended to be less influential than a full-blown Fort and Spirit from the priest, but it can be a filler if you don't have a priest.
Never heard of it. Can't
saedo — Tue, 09/02/2008 - 16:04Never heard of it. Can't find it either. You sure you're not thinking of Fel Intelligence? It gives Intellect and Spirit (lesser versions from Mage/Priest).
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Frost DK's and Frost Mages
Shihli — Tue, 09/02/2008 - 15:48Frost DK's and Frost Mages will, indeed, stack quite damn well together. They feed off of the same mechanics (Freeze).
I'll likely stick to a mutt talent mix, something to the tune of 2/18/51 on my DK. 51 Unholy to make for a great AoE/caster tank, 2 in Blood for Butchery, and 18 in Frost for Runic Power Mastery.
Should make for quite the tank, assuming the talent trees stay as they are in the current beta build.
Yea
saedo — Tue, 09/02/2008 - 15:00Yea 30%.
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Also Dufe, don't forget
Gares of War — Tue, 09/02/2008 - 14:41Also Dufe, don't forget frost mages. Frost deathknights + frost mages = win
A few debuff stacking
Gares of War — Tue, 09/02/2008 - 14:39A few debuff stacking questions:
How much +damage does mangle do for other bleeds? Is it 30% like trauma?
I am trying to see if Arms is viable, I think the nerf to blood fenzy was the final nail, but I was curious how the two debuffs compared.
Mangle would still be greater if the tank or off tank was a bear.
Except that all buffs can be
Apriestess — Tue, 09/02/2008 - 13:55Except that all buffs can be had with 8-10 people, leaving 15 or more spots left to be filled completely based on the merits of the player. Remember also that mages have a complete monopoly on bringing the crit bonus, demanding at least one mage in every raid. Previous to the Scorch "nerf," this mage would have, without a doubt, been Frost. Why? Because Frost was able to get both Improved Scorch AND Winter's Chill, not to mention the mana returns from Improved Water Elemental. With this change, mages will have more options. Would you like to be forced into a (likely lower damage) spec in order to bring the raid more support? Additionally, it is foolish to think that mage base damage will not be boosted in order to compensate for this DPS loss. Furthermore, to think that mages are alone in the nerfs is just plain wrong. Destro warlocks are hit hard by the loss of this debuff too, and Affliction locks suffer as much due to the loss of Shadow Weaving. Do you really think Blizzard is going to let an expansion go live with so much class imbalance, especially when they have explicitly stated that they have not yet started balancing raid DPS. There's no point getting worked up about this change when DPS is not balanced. Winter's Chill also affects ALL schools of magic, FYI.
BC went live with alot of
Dufe — Tue, 09/02/2008 - 17:21BC went live with alot of class imbalances and ended (now) with mages low on the totem pole dps-wise. So yes, there is good reason to be concerned and keep up with the forums. :) That being said, having only one mage and having him be frost with imp scorch would have been significantly lower raid dps than having two mages with one fire and one frost. The concern here is that unless mages are put on-par dps wise
Warlocks getting the nerf was in accordance with a blue post referring to the current state of warlock dps which "got crazy with all the % modifiers." That was expected as a part of the "fix" to that imbalance.
What I would like to see, if this is the route they go, is for dps testing to focus at some point on making the buffs in each category as balanced with each other as they ca, so that there is not an issue with "needing" a particular class just for a debuff. Of course the dps output will hopefully end up balanced this go-round as well. Only if those things do actually end up balanced will be have true raid comp flexibility.
Keep in mind for the Spell
Awarlock — Sat, 08/30/2008 - 09:40Keep in mind for the Spell Power buffs/debuffs category that in the latest beta build the moonkin spellpower buff (Earth and Moon), was changed to read: "Your Wrath and Starfire spells have a 20% chance to apply the Earth and Moon effect, which increases Arcane, Fire, Frost, Nature and Shadow damage taken by 13% for 12 seconds." With 5 talent points, this means moonkin actually have one of the best Spellpower increasing effects. This will be equal to a talented (with Malediction) Curse of Elements. In short, neither an unholy DK or an affliction warlock with be mandatory, because a moonkin can fill their role as well as providing crit, hit and haste. It seems that Blizzard really wants to give moonkin some respect in Wrath. Personally, I'm slightly concerned that they may be overpowered compared with other support classes, especially if their DPS ends up towards the high end of the spectrum.
This ends up being a big
Dufe — Sat, 08/30/2008 - 09:36This ends up being a big mage nerf. Scorch nerf + no stacking with Winter's Chill is a terrible blow, plus they just made Focus Magic (a BRAND NEW TALENT) worthless. Everything I was excited about for mages in raid just went down the toilet.
Where's that druid I was leveling? Time to go resto . . .
In regards to the comments
Awarlock — Sat, 08/30/2008 - 09:47In regards to the comments on Scorch and Winter's Chill, it is not a nerf per se. We need to remember that mages are the only class that brings a crit buff to a raid. In addition, in a deep fire, sub frost spec, the bonus critical multipliers make crit very close to damage in a point-by-point comparison. The main concern I have is that Blizzard may not rebalance casters to compensate for the lack of percentage based buffs they currently are expected to have in BC (Misery, Imp Scorch, CoE etc).
IT IS A NERF. Previously,
Dufe — Sat, 08/30/2008 - 19:08IT IS A NERF. Previously, scorch could be put up by a fire mage of sorts and winter's chill put up by a frost mage for some amazing synergy and dramatic damage bonuses. Now they don't stack, partly since they do the same darn thing. Furthermore, remember that the crit chance does NOT affect all spells, only fire, frost and arcane - so it's biggest application (and scorch's previous debuff) was for use with other mages, we thought to add synergy between our trees . . . guess we were wrong. Less damage and/or less synergy = nerf. And rolling the brand new "Focus Magic" talent into a buff/debuff group with noticeably superior options is frustrating and shows a lack of general planning - hopefully they will scale it up now to match the other options.
The thing I don't like is this: Blizzard said that they were making alot of buffs "raid wide" with the purpose of allowing more flexibility in deciding who to bring to raid. By then turning around and making them non-stacking with similar buffs/debuffs, they have essentially put us right back where we were with party buffs - you will be trying to stack your raid so that you have at least one person capable of putting up the best of each debuff type. Those that don't fall in this group may be "out" or at least considered underpowered and therefore devaluated, which is the very same type of problem we have now.
Yea. And maybe at level
saedo — Sat, 08/30/2008 - 09:18Yea. And maybe at level 80 boomkins will take it either way too? I'm not sure. I'd prob recommend still spec'ing into it for boomkins if it doesn't lose too much. It'd be the back up in case SP dies or if there's multi targets so you guys can split up. This way raid dps doesn't drop.
Heh the more pallies the less setup time I guess. If there's Imp Might, warrior doesn't have to Battle Shout. Kings everyone, no more Salv. Throw Wis/Light/Sanc on ppl if there's any more pallies around.
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i can also tell you for the
Keisjaa — Sat, 08/30/2008 - 09:09i can also tell you for the spell hit buff that most spriests will likely spec into it regardless of having a boomkin(that's 3%hit on gear i can drop)
interesting stuff..i can see about 30 mins of buff organisation ala Pally power setup for brut :P
Actually there's 2
saedo — Sat, 08/30/2008 - 09:02Actually there's 2 categories regarding this.
Stam Buff = Fort, no other competition, so didn't bother on my 2nd analysis list
Health Buff = Commanding Shout OR Blood Pact.
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it's still there but to my
Keisjaa — Sat, 08/30/2008 - 08:55it's still there but to my knowledge it's the only one of it's type(i saw it on the original list it may just have been clipped as it was at the bottom)
also it's easier to have since it's done pre pull & lasts a LOT longer(shouts are 2-3mins & locks might need a diff pet)
Health buff umm what
Sorreah — Sat, 08/30/2008 - 08:29Health buff
umm what happened to fort
Or maybe they did change it
saedo — Sat, 08/30/2008 - 00:32Or maybe they did change it in this build? The wording is now:
Focus magical energies, increasing spell power of all party or raid
members by 80. Lasts 1 min or until 50 charges are expended.
Which kinda sounds like a raid buff. Though prob still expensive to pop every minute for it.
Previous was
Focus
your energy on the target, increasing all magic damage taken by that
target by 80. Lasts 1 min or until 50 charges are expended.
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No error actually. It is
saedo — Sat, 08/30/2008 - 00:20No error actually. It is a debuff but won't stack with your buffs. It's kinda funky. there are "buffs" that are actually "debuffs" on a boss that won't stack with "buffs" that are on you. Yea so Focus Magic in this case being a debuff that basically increases your spellpower when attacking it, won't stack with say like a flat out Flametongue Totem which gives you spellpower on your own buff list. But maybe that'll change.
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The list there has at least
Dufe — Fri, 08/29/2008 - 23:51The list there has at least one error based on the way things are currently in the beta: Focus Magic is a debuff, not a buff.
Well Garreth wanted to me
saedo — Fri, 08/29/2008 - 23:06Well Garreth wanted to me start figuring out how these synergize so to go down the list and compare:
Numbers are all level 70 versions to better look at how 3.0 affects current raiding.
So a conclusion. There's a lot of overlap here. Meaning you can get a lot off the good buffs more easily.
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"We'd rather get back to
shadowcel — Fri, 08/29/2008 - 19:20"We'd rather get back to bringing good players"-amen to that.
More on this with regards to
saedo — Thu, 08/28/2008 - 23:32More on this with regards to de/buff stacking. Or rather, how some effects won't stack. Knew it was coming but wow to see this all categorized out: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=9336795321&sid=1
With the release of upcoming content patch players
will see a change in the way we allow buffs and debuffs to stack
exclusively in a raid. For the most part, what this change means is
that many buffs and debuffs that were previously allowed to stack
together no longer can, and that many buffs and debuffs that only a
single talent specialization could bring can now be brought by multiple
different specializations. The philosophy behind this change shows up
in many of the changes we have made in Wrath of The Lich King, such as
when we made almost all buffs raid-wide. We want players to be able to
form raids and parties based on who they want to play with, rather than
who has the correct talents and abilities to min-max their raid
performance.
Raid composition will still matter to some extent, but without this
change, it would have overwhelmed every other aspect of raid planning
(as we added new capabilities to each of 30 different talent trees).
You no longer need to rigidly control the melee/spellcaster balance of
your raid, or make sure every group has all the critical buffing
classes, etc. This change has many class balance implications.
IMPORTANT! Before we are done, we will thoroughly test the
performance of every class. It should not be assumed that one class'
current performance relative to others in beta is final. Some classes
(and specializations) will need to be reduced in power and some
increased. Many may feel the change has more impact on class X than
class Y. We will address all of those concerns via our internal testing
and community feedback.
There are thirty or so different categories into which buffs and
debuffs fit. Here you will find a comprehensive list of the changes
made broken down by category and which spells/talents are in that
category.
In each category, you can only benefit from the most powerful spell
granting that effect. For example, Fel Intelligence grants spirit and
intellect, both weaker than Arcane Intellect and Divine Spirit. If a
player has Fel Intelligence and receives a stronger Arcane Intellect
buff, he will gain the intellect value from Arcane Intellect and the
spirit value from Fel Intelligence.
In most cases, fully-talented players will have exactly equal power
on the strength of these buffs and debuffs. Fel Intelligence is an
example of where one ability is weaker than others. The buffs in the
"Increased Spell Power Buff" category are also not all the same
potency, as they scale and grow in radically different ways. In
virtually every other case, however, the buffs are equal. This means,
for example, that fully-talented Battle Shout and Blessing of Might now
grant the exact same amount of attack power.
In addition to this change, we also needed to address the "mana
battery" roles in a raid. The mana regeneration effect they grant is no
longer limited to their own party, and it no longer depends on the
amount of damage they deal. Each time they trigger the mana
regeneration effect, 10 people in their raid group will receive a buff
which causes them to regenerate 0.5% of their maximum mana each second.
This buff, Replenishment, will be given preferentially to raid members
with the lowest mana, but will re-evaluate which raid members receive
it each time it is fired. Replenishment is provided by Shadow Priests,
Survival Hunters, and Retribution Paladins.
Finally, we have modified Heroism and Bloodlust to affect the
entire raid. However, all affected raid members will be unable to cast
or benefit from Bloodlust/Heroism for 5 minutes.
Below you will find a list of the changes to abilities which
exhibit new behavior regardless of the exclusive categories. The
changes usually mean the old behavior was removed and replaced by the
new behavior. Numbers listed are for maximally-talented versions. Here
is that list of changes:
enemies in its radius have an increased chance of being struck by
criticals.
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