Echoes of Doom
garreth — Thu, 10/02/2008 - 11:08
You all probably remember my hysterical, rant-filled, rage-fueled freak-outs over the Illumination nerf right after BC. You all told me "it will be alright" and then it went live and it wasn't alright. Paladins to this day are considered some of the weakest healers in the game and it's something I struggle with in raids nightly.
Then the first beta talents came out and I was... overjoyed. The talents were amazing, the abilities exactly what we'd begged for for years.
Then we got it all taken away.
This post pretty much sums it all up: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=10532600037&sid=20...
Read it and understand why being a Holy Paladin is about the shittiest role to play in WoW. At this point, playing Holy is nothing but a labor of love for me. It's fun in a "hit yourself with a hammer" sort of way, but I know that if I don't heal, we will lose one of the few remaining healers left in this fucking game.
A fundamental flaw of WoW is that it bases the entire success of a group of people on a set number of those people "taking one for the team" and rolling a tank or a healer. You've all heard this rant before, yes, I know. But at one point I was EXCITED for the paladin Holy changes in Wrath. And now they've all been pounded into the ground and we've been reverted right back to where we were.
In before the inevitable Shihli post stating "It's beta, nothing is set in stone".
In before the auto-shotting Hunter tells me to suck it up because "dps r hard 2".
In before the resto shammies emo out again.
In before the tanks tell me "you think YOU got it bad".
In before the resto druids realize they actually get an AoE HoT in Wrath. (Yarly: http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=53251)
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ok... logical error with my
Cdhabro — Sat, 10/04/2008 - 14:53ok... logical error with my previous posts... cast times not considerred ftl.
also not considerred:
Paladin-
Beacon of light (doubles all healing)
Infusion of light: Holy Shock crits reduces Holy Light casting time
Judgements of the Pure: 10% haste
Priest-
Divine Providence- 10% bonus healing (spell specific ,CoH included)
Test of failth- 6% bonus healing and crit if target is below 50%
inner fire- now has a spell power buff 120 base 45% bonus talented
Shaman-
Riptide, various effects including increaseing chain heal on that (the first) target by 25%
Earthliving weapon- bonus healing and chance to proc hot
not familiar enough with shaman healing to expound more.
"dps r hard 2"
Grasen — Fri, 10/03/2008 - 22:26"dps r hard 2"
Well the 2 glyphs I
saedo — Fri, 10/03/2008 - 16:32Well the 2 glyphs I mentioned before got a change:
Glyph of Flash of Light - Your Flash of Light heals for 50% less initially, but also heals for 140% of its inital effect over 12 sec. (Down from 15 seconds)
Glyph of Holy Light - Your Holy Light grants 10% of its heal amount to up to 5 friendly targets within 100 yds (up from 5 yds) of the initial target.
So definitely a buff to the Holy Light, now that the aoe heal is pretty much anyone in raid instead of those within melee distance of the target.
The FoL one is a... change. Buff maybe? Heals the same, but with less duration so does mean each tick is stronger. Just shorter HoT duration. So situationally....
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just saw this
bluetouguyss — Fri, 10/03/2008 - 15:52just saw this http://www.worldofraids.com/news/313.html
OK OK I will start healing
bluetouguyss — Fri, 10/03/2008 - 15:37OK OK I will start healing in Wrath!!! lol I have been trying to stockpile gear to heal kara but my gear SUCKS!!! I swear for some reason I just cannot find good healing gear. I have like two epics (weapon and shoulders I believe) and then a bunch of shit. Anyway I understand where you are coming from. My goal all along has been to do the things that no one else wants to do mainly tank and heal and in wrath it looks like I will go from tanking to healing.
A T4 resto shammy tops 6k
Torvo — Fri, 10/03/2008 - 13:56A T4 resto shammy tops 6k heals on 3 targets without thinking twice. Not sure how the CH will drop on the extra target, but scale directly up to 8k+?
A full time healer will get
Torvo — Fri, 10/03/2008 - 13:54A full time healer will get a raid spot? Sweet :)
Pali AOE
Cdhabro — Fri, 10/03/2008 - 12:31Pali AOE healing comparison
Glyph of Circle of Healing
Your Circle of Healing spell heals 1 additional target.
so i guess that bumps it nearrer to 6k,
Glyph of Chain Heal
Your Chain Heal heals 1 additional target.
What does that make the possible chain heal's total for a t4 resto sham?
motivation and theory behind
Cdhabro — Fri, 10/03/2008 - 12:00motivation and theory behind design decisions interests me.
If it is any consolation I was looking over glyphs and came across:
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=41106
Glyph of Holy Light
Your Holy Light grants 10% of its heal amount to up to 5 friendly targets within 5 yds of the initial target.
Of course numbers will change in wrath but if you consider entry level raiding Paladin Holy Lights hitting for 4K add in an extra possible 50% (10%x5) healing whenever it is needed for a rough total 6K non-crit- compared to a priest CoH which is under 1Kx5 non crit... Can anyone throw out numbers for Chain heal in full t4 equivalent? Holy light will also scale better since it has a higher crit rate and longer base cast time… but at the same time the cast time is also it’s draw back. Certainly Glyph of Holy Light is not the god-send of aoe healing but it does give you a nice bonus.From my understanding blizz designed fights in BC with a lot of movement to combat all healing classes ability to heal constantly without worrying about mana. My assumption is that with more of an emphasis being on managing your mana wisely instead of never having to worry about it- we will see less movement focused fights. I think that is why they initially broke divine plea for holy before only gimping it.
"To help with both of these
Agoney — Fri, 10/03/2008 - 05:46"To help with both of these potential problems, We are going to change Divine Plea to only reduce your healing by 20% (up from 100%). However, the original nerf to the spell was partially because of it being difficult to stop a paladin in PvP, so we are going to make the effect dispellable."
Every class has it's own
Disrupter — Fri, 10/03/2008 - 08:24Every class has it's own pro's/con's. Paladin's pro's are highest survivability/huge raid buffs/best single target healer. Can stick in with the tank even during a fire can break any cc and continue to go to town on the tank.
PVE is pretty much , from what I can tell , repetition. Can you press the same buttons at the same times each night. For the most part PVE is very predictable and easy to think ahead after you've seen it happen once or twice. An example is dpsing on Alar as a ranged caster. Does every caster know how to min/max their dps time compared to the walking time they have to do?
No not all the time, people need to experience these things in order to become good at it. If I was told "meh, your dps is bad, your not fit far hamfist." not given a chance to learn... I'd of been pretty much screwed. I can't say I'm amazingly good, or anything... I just repeat the saaaame thing everytime we do a boss. Learning a bit from each attempt making minor modifications to do better dps.
(Example is Solarion, I used to just move 1 plat form over instead of 2, but by moving 2, I don't hurt my dps time at all - infact due to regen mechanics I get a bit of much needed mana back and UP my dps...)
Either way I can't say a healer is more difficult than a dps class. People die, it can be the dps's fault for standing in the damage just as much as it can be unpreventable damage, heals falling behind that cause a death. What I will say is you CAN bring a couple terrible dpsers to raid and still kill bosses. You probably can't bring a couple terrible healers to raid unless the others substantially out gear the fight.
That's my view on it, bracing for "Dps R ez healz r hard" flames. I've played on both side's of the spectrum, I may mostly PvP heal but just like PvE the damage is mostly predictable through experience. There are exceptions in both situations. DPS standing in the cave in, not moving out, reacting to save them, than the tank dies. Same thing in arena's. Your partners in trouble , you have to trinket a CC and use your OH SHIT macro, and then you get focused because you can't get away.
Due to a fuck up, and lack of communication, shit goes to hell in a hand basket and someone dies either way. Garreth got RNG'd the other night on Kalecgos the same way I've been RNG'd by warriors. Whirlwind mace stun on me AND my partner, gibs pet, we lose... the difference is that in a raid, there are other healers that can help.
Btw, RNG means random number generator for anyone that doesn't know ^^. That thing that ahnilates you when you fight a stormherald warrior :P.
Not as good as what was in
saedo — Thu, 10/02/2008 - 22:06Not as good as what was in talents before but...
Pally HoT: Glyph of Flash of Light: Your Flash of Light heals for 50% less initially, but also heals for 140% of its inital effect over 15 sec.
Pally AoE Heal: Glyph of Holy Light: Your Holy Light grants 10% of its heal amount to up to 5 friendly targets within 5 yds of the initial target.
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Whats your Flash heal for
starstalker — Thu, 10/02/2008 - 21:08Whats your Flash heal for in 1.5 sec? Whats your holy light heal for? Can any other class match that for the same speed and mana cost?
Yes, priests get group heals, thats their niche. Druids get hots, thats their niche. Druids get a chain, thats their niche. There is not a better single target healer than a paladan. That's their niche. Not to mention the huge raid intangiblies that they bring. Shadow priests dont rank high on dps, but (pre 3.0) they brought so much else it didn't matter (that much).
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Avocado burns your fat inside of you. Rice does not give you fat. Seaweed gives you buffs
Actually in Wrath I may be
Blizzhax — Thu, 10/02/2008 - 17:18Actually in Wrath I may be switching one of my many into a main healer.
It -may- be the Shaman, or it could be the Paladin, or Druid.
Of these 3 (which will all be 70) I want to decide which one will be the best healer in WOTLK.
and since we are here lets get some of your guys thoughts. I want to be able to 5 man heal and possibly raid heal in wrath, but I here so many stories on -nerfs- and such. (druids lifebloom nerf and the shaman chain heal nerf)
I -love- enh shaman (and have since day 1, and might I add I have been pretty damn good at it -pre bc I was at my best because I was playing everyday etc, and after bc gear was a huge need to make the class-, and I have built my own talent trees since then). I was enh shaman in and out of raid.. healer in and out of raid (on horde).
anywho.... shaman, druid, pally healer eventually is my point.
The leather thing was a
Ewiges — Thu, 10/02/2008 - 14:05The leather thing was a joke, chill...
Anyways, talking to a pally in-game something has been brought up to my attention.
Lore, what is a pally?
A blessed warrior, a warrior of the light, etc.
In Warcraft history, they were heroes, warriors, not priests. World of Warcraft has turned these once proud, blessed warriors fighting for the light into healers. In Warcraft history they could heal a little.
Priests are healers, Palidans are warriors of the good, fighting all things evil.
Honestly, be glad you can heal as much as you can. Go Go OP ret!
/nod and pats Garreth on
jaibyrd — Thu, 10/02/2008 - 13:41/nod and pats Garreth on the back
The healing priest over in the corner wearing CLOTH and with a 6 second cool down on the one really effective aoe heal we have in Wrath sets up a soap box.
I'm also wondering how the hell priests are going to compete with shammies and druids, let alone pallies (who do actually heal single targets pretty damn well). Just saying...I think that all the healers are wondering how we are going to fit together, I do see the 'bring whatever class as long as the player knows how to rock' idea being a good one so that raids can take place regardless of what classes are online that night but not sure how that is going to play out on the healing field. Especially when the talents are not seeming to level out over the classes but every class is getting aoe/and hots/ and single target heals assigned to them. It certainly is a concern but I do think that we need to relax a little and not stress so much over something that will change over and over until the game is actually released, and updated a few times. The big picture is we will all still be playing and we will learn the new contortions that are required to rock in the classes that we play.
It is absolutely a labour of love to heal in game. Each one of the true healers does it because they love to heal...that's all. Each of the classes of healers has to realize we are all going to get new roles and be able to do things differently than what we are used to doing now. It happened in BC and it will also happen in ROTLK; and we will adapt, regardless of the grumbling and sniffling over the few points lost or gained in specific areas of our talent builds and in our skills. I for one will not lose any sleep over how or why it changes till I start playing the new talents (Next week or so) and find new ways to make sure the other players stay alive. I"m pretty sure Garreth for all his frustration over the loss of his shiny new toys will also find ways to get the most heals out of his hairy sweaty short guy.
Steps off soap box.
Yes, I like to heal. No, I've never been shadow.
Im not going to really get
Shinso — Thu, 10/02/2008 - 12:56Im not going to really get into this but first of all Plate wears Plate mail leather and cloth. while not optimized or w/e you have options that cloth onry doesnt.
"In before the resto druids
Ardea — Thu, 10/02/2008 - 12:19"In before the resto druids realize they actually get an AoE HoT in Wrath"
=D
I didn't read anything else, sorry. Was it good?
I think g (and I know I am)
Pedran — Thu, 10/02/2008 - 12:00I think g (and I know I am) talking more viability than 'harder'. If the Shammy heals better, take him. If the warrior tanks better, take him.
btw G, my Tankadin post went up before your's did with the QQ. ;) Just sayin......
I still state my claim that
Shihli — Thu, 10/02/2008 - 11:51I still state my claim that things may not be perfect, but I haven't seen a shaman, druid, or priest (save Disc) single-target heal a tank like a Paladin can.
Niche healing, etc.
By the way, "It's beta, nothing is set in stone" and "dps r hard 2".
(I really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really REALLY despise the tone that anything in this game is inherently "harder" than anything else. This is an easy game. The part that makes it hard is the laziness, incompetence, and ability to learn of other people - but that's another story for another thread)
Now that much I'll agree
Shihli — Thu, 10/02/2008 - 12:15Now that much I'll agree with, Garreth. They aren't exactly giving Paladins a fair shake - the biggest difference isn't so much the lack of HoTs but rather the lack of mobile heals and AoE heals. Obviously Priests get AoE heals (Circle of Healing) and one HoT (Renew) ... Shamans get an AoE heal (Chain Heal) ... Druids are top-notch HoT'ers (Rejuv, Regrowth, Lifebloom). Paladins don't have those advantages.
Looked over Pally talents briefly, Beacon of Light sounds nice but it's not what Paladins need to compete with other class changes (Druids get an AoE HoT, Priests get another AoE heal, Shamans get a HoT).
What I've seen out of the Wrath beta forums (at least with other classes) is somewhat reassuring. While I doubt they'll do anything drastic to make Paladins right up there with the changes the other classes are seeing, I hope they take care of you guys.
And even though Paladins may be the lowest run on the healing ladder right now, at least you're a healer in the situation where we're terribly low on them.
And to reiterate, I highly
garreth — Thu, 10/02/2008 - 12:12And to reiterate,
I highly encourage any of our current dps classes to roll a healer for Wrath. Full time. New main.
Not dabbling on an alt, not "trying it out". Full time, day in, day out. Roll a healer and do it, we'll have a spot for you in raid.
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"Yes; analogies, it turns out, can sometimes be used to draw parallels between things that are not exactly the same." - Ratgirl
"... but I haven't seen a
Aidin — Thu, 10/02/2008 - 12:02"... but I haven't seen a shaman, druid, or priest (save Disc) single-target heal a tank like a Paladin can."
I have, every single week.
We are an oh shit healing class, we can save you with a BoP, a LoH, a taunt off a clothy...but our heals are meh at best compared to every other healing class.
I'm with ya G...I'm not following the changes to pallies obsessively for exactly this reason...they give us hope...then they squash us like bugs.
I'll continue to level my resto shammy in hopes that something awesome will happen to paladins...
At the risk of this turning
garreth — Thu, 10/02/2008 - 12:01At the risk of this turning into a flamewar, let me break down what "hard" is:
1) Start out with expectations. ie "X class must do Y thing"
2) Place obstacles in the way of X class. ie "This fight is movement based, or massive aoe damage based."
3) Take into account class mechanics to overcome said obstacles. "Druids can heal and move, priests can CoH spam and move."
4) Take into account unchangeable and inherent class limitations "Things like regen, sustainability, burst healing, mobility, raid synnergy, 'fun'"
5) Now, meet the expectations of point 1.
If 2 and 3 and 4 are preventing you from meeting #1, then, yes, the game suddenly becomes "HARD" not because you can't spam your buttons fast enough, but because the game doesn't CARE if you're spamming your buttons fast enough, it still won't matter.
And, no i'm not whining that "healing is hard." What I'm saying is that the paladin class specifically is at an inherent disadvantage in Wrath and the talents we almost got would have fixed those problems. Instead we've LITERALLY gained nothing in terms of healing effectiveness for Wrath.
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"Yes; analogies, it turns out, can sometimes be used to draw parallels between things that are not exactly the same." - Ratgirl
Any other guild paladins
Dragonspear — Thu, 10/02/2008 - 11:42Any other guild paladins tempted to change their guild forum icon to that which is Kalgan's Icon on teh Official Forums ><
And I swear the next lvl 70 beta/ptr player that claims ret is OP. . .brb gone to strangle a baby in my left hand and a kitten on my right
"--Many class changes. You won't like the ones made
to your own class but you'll think the changes made to the 9 other
classes are all overpowered." ~Tigole, Blizzard CM
/slitwrists
Torvo — Thu, 10/02/2008 - 11:35/slitwrists
/agree Lets see. It
Pedran — Thu, 10/02/2008 - 11:26/agree
Lets see. It takes longer to level a paladin that pretty much any other class except MAYBE druid.... MAYBE.
DKs get AOE, and actually can still DPS HEAVY while tanking. Warrior's get AOE and start out at 10% mitigation to our 6%. Nope, tankadins are screwed.
Ret is actually a dps class. Wow. That nerfbat's gonna swing soon. Ret isn't supposed to be viable.
Holy gets 'effed in the hole with no lube.
That pretty much takes it.
BLIZZARD HATES PALADINS
Wow, you said nothing about
Ewiges — Thu, 10/02/2008 - 11:13Wow, you said nothing about rogues. Secondly, at least you get to wear plate. Trying wearing leather for a night.
I'll agree with Garreth here
Shihli — Thu, 10/02/2008 - 12:17I'll agree with Garreth here Ewiges - I chew through plate at about the same pace I chew through leather.
Armor is, at best, a minor consolation. In a PvP environment it might make the difference between life or death, but in PvE (which is all Garreth and myself really worry about at all), armor doesn't make a lick of difference unless you're a tank.
Wiges, I was not aware of
garreth — Thu, 10/02/2008 - 11:53Wiges, I was not aware of any boss fight in WoW wherein rogues are supposed to take direct melee damage, thus necessitating the mitigation of plate. In other words, I wasn't aware you were supposed to get hit.
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"Yes; analogies, it turns out, can sometimes be used to draw parallels between things that are not exactly the same." - Ratgirl